HBT camo broek.

[mexpyne]

bonjour.....

ik heb een vraagje over de HBT camo broek.
ik weet dat ze zijn gebruikt,in de pacific door de USMC.
maar ook bij de stranding van normandië door het armored division.
máár werd het gebruikt bij maar één bepaalde groep? of allemaal?
en tot waar en wanneer werden ze gebruikt en gedragen?
hoop dat iemand mij kan helpen

cheers ,Max

[jeroen wo2]

Hallo Max,

Ik hoop je hiermee een beetje te kunnen helpen.
Dit stukje komt uit een onderzoek/discussie van Ed Walton of Lost Battalions, een leverancier van uniformen en uitrusting voor Reenactors:


Generally speaking, the combat arms branches were opposed to camouflage due to their feelings about the use of camo in the Pacific in 1943, but the engineers believed in camo and were pushing the idea for Europe. As a result, it was decided that there would be three test battalions in Normandy wearing the camo in July. One battalion of the 30th ID - which earned them the nickname of "Roosevelt's SS", the organic combat engineer battalion of the 2nd Armored, and one battalion of the 2nd ID. I've not found any reference to the specific battalions by number for the infantry divisions, nor the regimetns. So you have a coverage of less than 1/14th table strength in each of the three divisions wearing these uniforms so that's a very small pool of people and all in front line positions with very high turnover. For instance, the second ID had 15,000 battle casualties from 6/44 to 5/45 against a table strength of 14,000. The British published books about US uniforms claim the camo was quickly withdrawn due to battle casualties from friendly fire as a result of mistaken identity for Waffen-SS dot camo. While researching this, I found that there were in fact friendly fire incidents between the 29th Division and the 2nd Division right after the 2nd ID came ashore, but it was caused by the dark green OD7 HBT fatigues being worn by the 2nd ID. The 29th had not seen that color before and it apparently looked to them like German reed green. I never found any specific historical incidents of friendly fire against the test battalions. I discussed this many years ago with Jonathan Gawne, editor of the defunct US edition of "Militaria Magazine," publisher of the old lamented "G.I. Journal" and author of "Spearheading D-Day" and many other books, who is probably the foremost authority on US uniforms. Jon told me he had researched the AARs in the National Archives specifically to find out about these alleged friendly fire incidents involving camouflage and he found nothing. Not one incident. Then he researched for the orders pulling the uniforms and found nothing. This British theory about US uniforms is further disproved by the fact that photos show these uniforms still being used by personnel in those units in late September 1944. The decision had already been made before the fact that camo would not be used in Europe and this "test" was merely a sop to the camo agitators in the Engineer Corps. The uniforms were issued to a relatively miniscule number of people and the uniforms were allowed to live out their combat lifespans of a few weeks and never replaced. It's notable that in the photos in September, such as the 2nd ID at Brest, there is usually only one or two men in each shot still surviving who has camo as compared to early July photos where everyone in the photo is wearing camo. The average lifespan of a combat infantryman with his unit in Europe was reckoned to be about 15 days. At that point, he was either dead or sent back wounded. Of course, we all know of guys who bought it immediately and others who survived straight through from June to May unscathed. However, you get the point. These uniforms didn't last long because the guys wearing them didn't last long.


In het boek "Waffen SS" by Martin Windrow is deze foto getoond van een SS'er die een overall aan heeft.
Dit blijkt een US Camo overall te zijn die hij buitgemaakt heeft!

[JPH]

En anders staat hier ook nog het e.e.a. waar je misschien iets aan hebt: http://www.atthefrontshop.com/ProductDe ... ode=USUJAC (even een stukje naar beneden scrollen)

[mexpyne]

Hallo Max,

Ik hoop je hiermee een beetje te kunnen helpen.
Dit stukje komt uit een onderzoek/discussie van Ed Walton of Lost Battalions, een leverancier van uniformen en uitrusting voor Reenactors:


Generally speaking, the combat arms branches were opposed to camouflage due to their feelings about the use of camo in the Pacific in 1943, but the engineers believed in camo and were pushing the idea for Europe. As a result, it was decided that there would be three test battalions in Normandy wearing the camo in July. One battalion of the 30th ID - which earned them the nickname of "Roosevelt's SS", the organic combat engineer battalion of the 2nd Armored, and one battalion of the 2nd ID. I've not found any reference to the specific battalions by number for the infantry divisions, nor the regimetns. So you have a coverage of less than 1/14th table strength in each of the three divisions wearing these uniforms so that's a very small pool of people and all in front line positions with very high turnover. For instance, the second ID had 15,000 battle casualties from 6/44 to 5/45 against a table strength of 14,000. The British published books about US uniforms claim the camo was quickly withdrawn due to battle casualties from friendly fire as a result of mistaken identity for Waffen-SS dot camo. While researching this, I found that there were in fact friendly fire incidents between the 29th Division and the 2nd Division right after the 2nd ID came ashore, but it was caused by the dark green OD7 HBT fatigues being worn by the 2nd ID. The 29th had not seen that color before and it apparently looked to them like German reed green. I never found any specific historical incidents of friendly fire against the test battalions. I discussed this many years ago with Jonathan Gawne, editor of the defunct US edition of "Militaria Magazine," publisher of the old lamented "G.I. Journal" and author of "Spearheading D-Day" and many other books, who is probably the foremost authority on US uniforms. Jon told me he had researched the AARs in the National Archives specifically to find out about these alleged friendly fire incidents involving camouflage and he found nothing. Not one incident. Then he researched for the orders pulling the uniforms and found nothing. This British theory about US uniforms is further disproved by the fact that photos show these uniforms still being used by personnel in those units in late September 1944. The decision had already been made before the fact that camo would not be used in Europe and this "test" was merely a sop to the camo agitators in the Engineer Corps. The uniforms were issued to a relatively miniscule number of people and the uniforms were allowed to live out their combat lifespans of a few weeks and never replaced. It's notable that in the photos in September, such as the 2nd ID at Brest, there is usually only one or two men in each shot still surviving who has camo as compared to early July photos where everyone in the photo is wearing camo. The average lifespan of a combat infantryman with his unit in Europe was reckoned to be about 15 days. At that point, he was either dead or sent back wounded. Of course, we all know of guys who bought it immediately and others who survived straight through from June to May unscathed. However, you get the point. These uniforms didn't last long because the guys wearing them didn't last long.


In het boek "Waffen SS" by Martin Windrow is deze foto getoond van een SS'er die een overall aan heeft.
Dit blijkt een US Camo overall te zijn die hij buitgemaakt heeft!

bedankt voor de info!!!!
heb ik inderdaad heel veel aan!!
you to JPH

cheers

[Mr_Flibble]

Aantal eenheden binnen de 2nd Armored Divison heeft de US Army Camouflage HBT kleding uitgereikt gekregen vlak voor aanvang van Operation Cobra (hun eerste schone kleding sinds D-Day). Tegen September (6 tot 8 weken later) kregen de meeste eenheden schone uniformen en verdwenen de meeste Camouflage HBT kleding weer.

Fotografisch bewijs van eenheden die ze gedragen hebben binnen de 2nd Armored Division:
41st Armored Infantry regiment
48th Medical Battalion (in ieder geval de Combat Medics toegewezen aan het 41st AIR)
82nd Reconnaisance Battalion
17th Combat Engineers Battalion (alhoewel hierover nog gediscussieerd word)

Sgt Paul Andert van de 41st AIR meldt een Friendly Fire incident in zijn boek "Unless you've been there" waar zijn Halftrack beschoten werd door jachtbommenwerpers waarbij 1 GI gedood werd. De camouflage uniformen werden als de oorzaak aangewezen, maar ik vermoedt dat dat excuus aangevoerd werd om de piloot vrij te pleiten. Hoe kan hij de camouflage uniformen onderscheiden hebben tijdens zijn attack run als hij de felle aerial recognition markers op alle voertuigen gemist heeft?
Andert zelf werd ondervraagt door de S2 als een krijgsgevangen Duitser toen hij gewond binnen werd gebracht in zijn camouflage HBT uniform.
Een andere gewonde GI van de 41st AIR (Bohr heette hij geloof ik) werd wakker in een POW hospitaal in Engeland, hij was door het uniform ook aangezien voor een Duitser.


Wat betreft de foto in Windrow's boek. Die is volgens mij gewoon in scene gezet. De Britten maakte zelf ook deze 'sniper suits' dan wel voor de US Army indertijd. Ik